I was guessing 5.5 based on your rating of CPM-154. The knives can be used in humid and wet environments without rusting. If you have a favorite steel, rock on! They lack the carbon necessary to hold an edge, even during mild use. In general, the more carbide the steel has and the larger the carbides the lower is the toughness. VG-10 steel also has the same level of toughness as 14C28N and the same level of corrosion resistance. Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. You need a hard medium to sharpen it like diamond or boride. H1 and 420 also have excellent corrosion resistance but are limited to lower hardness and edge retention. In general, higher carbon and higher vanadium steels have higher wear resistance and edge retention but lower toughness. See the chart below showing 52100 steel that was overaustenitized (unintentionally) by a knifemaker that sent me specimens for toughness testing. Required fields are marked *. The 10V specimens tempered at 1000F were 4-5 ft-lbs while the specimens tempered at 4-500F were 7-8 ft-lbs. Now that is power planer blades, but the principle stands, less carbon and alloy isnt the best for wood working and Id use a steel like 26C3 (1.25% C .30%Cr) for my hand tools and temper them to around 62 hard and use the best angle for wood shaving, not the best angle for cutting rope. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The steel loses some of the chromium in solution for corrosion resistance to form these fine carbides for hardness. The heat treatment techniques used by the manufacturer as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance! False treatment and geometry upheld by Made in USA is like buying 8Cr from China (except late A.G) My personal experience tops with Vanadis 4E, CPM-M4, RWL-34 and the likes. Some steels are more difficult to manufacture for the steel company or have more expensive alloying elements so the cost is increased. These images are taken from my book Knife Engineering. 8am-5pm Saturday. AR-RPM9 Other factors that can be added in are corrosion resistance, hardness, and cost. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. Divers, sailors, and anglers need knives that will resist corrosion above all else. Below are some great ways to make your knife your own. Why wouldnt it be possible to make a damascus steel out of (say) AEB-L and s90V, or wouldnt that gain the best of both? I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. This is a non-powder steel produced by American steel company Carpenter. Is Vancron SuperClean a good choice for a chef knife? At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. However, it is not really known how many different companies are making 8Cr13MoV (or at least I dont know), it could be that it is one manufacturer that is dominating the market. The D2 version is heavier and harder, but doesn't cut as smoothly. How could it be? They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. Available in Kershaw knives (as of 2012) and in other . Its very hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. Though technically not a stainless steel due to its composition, in use it performs exactly like one. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. 440A Its in the same class as Vanadis 8 and 10V. Honestly, yes, because its perfect steel for your knife, besides it depends on which knife, so when youre talking about chef knives, then 14c28n would be an ideal pick thanks to professional corrosion resistance and edge retention. On the other hand the professional performing blade steels sharpen to a razor edge and hold the edge for an extended use. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. And Michael Fitzgerald, Tim Marais, and Head VI for increasing their contributions. Also how did you arrive at the edge retention & toughness numbers for 8cr13mov and for BD1N toughness? What would you rate the toughness of CPM-D2. quite possibly the best steel youll find on a sub-$30 production knife. In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. ZDP-189 can tarnish, though not as easily as 3V. If you purchase this types of knife, without any hassle you can easily re-sharpening. Thanks for the Article Larrin, Manage Settings This is one of the better steels on the market. It can withstand a lot of wear and tear. The biggest change that is seen with powder metallurgy in measured properties is in regards to toughness. If you are a newbie to steel knives and the differences are not yet clear, come with us to the next section as we look into each knifes characteristics, pros, and cons. However, to choose the best knife for you must consider all the properties, including toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Not as tough as the best carbon steels, it's tougher than most . However, the relative difference in toughness between these different examples are similar. The 8Cr13MoV vs D2 debate. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) Steels with only vanadium carbides have the best balance of properties because the hardness of carbide matters for edge retention but doesnt for toughness. Most steels use carbon to increase hardness, but 14C28N uses nitrogen, boosting hardness without the normal penalty of increased corrosion. The hardenable grade of titanium (Beta C Titanium) reaches up to 45 or so rc. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. 440B Rex 45 Below shows approximate maximum hardness vs stainless rating for several stainless knife steels. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. first there might have been some annealing going on (even if its was a microscopic level) and the steels might have reacted differently. After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. Its possible that there are steel manufacturers with better processing which would lead to an even carbide distribution but I cant say that without seeing it for myself. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. This is a major tradeoff between improved cutting ability and edge retention with an acute angle vs a strong and chip resistant edge with an obtuse angle. For this perfect size that for most tasks and the slim tip allows the knife to excel at piercing and detail work. This steel is quite corrosion resistant and sharpens easily. Copper frame are very sturdy and machine well and take the best patina over time. Between the assisted open, weird looking texture designs, and the stainless steel handle, the Cannonball has a lot of features I don't normally like, but even I have to admit it's a good design for the price. I have a (relatively) short introduction before getting into the ratings with a few important things to put them into context. in relation to hardness). However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. In thick forms, like a fixed blade, 1095 isa tough, low-cost steel. Its used for combat knives, bushcrafting knives, and other applications where having a supertough blade trumps the need for edge retention and corrosion resistance. Now that we know what each factor represents, we can see how the steels rank against one another. My favorites of the high edge retention group are Vanadis 8 and CPM-10V. But keep in mind that no steel is perfect for everything. In nitrogen steels, nitrogen is used as the iron-hardener instead of carbon, thus limiting the possibility of rusting. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. Both knives come at an affordable price for high-end knives. Since the heat treatment is done before you get your knife, and its impossible to tell how good the heat treatment is with your eye, you often must rely on the manufacturers reputation for a good heat treat. How do its properties compare to other steels? These steels favor edge retention over all else. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. These steels are the good old hard-working steels. . Theres still a lot of misinformation being pushed by influencers especially in knife steel rankings. 3) catra is (as far as i know) the only accredited (iso/en) testing method. Vanadium carbides are very large with conventional production of steels but are very small with powder metallurgy. Start comparing steels. Because of their good edge retention, these steels are quite versatile in folders and fixed blades. I also have a video that summarizes some of the information below while also showing how some of the experiments work. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. Its not a particularly great cutter, being poor at retaining an edge. The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. It is among the steel knives with exceptional toughness while maintaining excellent corrosion resistance. LC200N is produced with a special technique to add high nitrogen, giving steel excellent corrosion resistance on the top! Powder metallurgy is a technology designed to maintain a small carbide size. But SM100 is not widely available, hard to heat treat and grind, and exceptionally expensive. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. D2 is a tool steel used in industrial settings. Its hard enough, tough enough, and stain-resistant enough. Would be great if some manufactures changed their steels based on this information. 14C28N Vs D2 . BD1 isnt terribly hard but sharpens easily. 8670 and 5160 are good choices for large knives that need very high toughness. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. Sandvik 14C28N steel offers excellent corrosion resistance, exceptional toughness, good edge retention, and is easier to sharpen. I also added a few more steels in this study. 14c28n steel and D2 steel are both high-quality knife steels. -> Maybe prequenched 14c28n could be a little tougher than AEB-L? Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ I guess the question is whether toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases. Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. There are a few aspects to your question, I think. High Alloy Tool Steels and High Speed Steels. However, I would argue that pure material removal is usually not the limiting step for ease in sharpening. 14C28N is the highest-selling steel of Sandvik, a Swedish steel company. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. It can dull your edge, cause pitting, and damage the structural integrity of your knife. Did you change the estimate based on more testing? Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. This refers to the angle of your edge and the thickness of the knife behind the edge. Then we could say, e.g. The ultra high corrosion resistance steels Vanax or LC200N max out around 60-61 Rc instead. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. Interesting. Edge retention often refers to the ability of a knifes edge to maintain its sharpness during use. 14c28n has less carbon and chromium as compared to 9Cr steel. If youre having trouble finding the steel you want, see if another manufacturer makes something much like it. The studies confirmed that the primary controlling factors are hardness of the steel, volume of carbides, and hardness of the carbides. The hardness level of steel is determined using a universal scale called the "Rockwell C Test", commonly called the Rockwell hardness scale (HRC). These properties make steel a good choice for making kitchen, fishing, and everyday knives. 12C27 steel is extremely popular in the US knife market for its high hardness, high wear resistance, and great corrosion resistance. Nitro V vs 14C28N Last but not least, 14C28N contains comparatively more vanadium elements which makes the carbides more harder and strong, which gives 14C28N a better edge retention. Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! Oftentimes steels that are reported to be difficult to sharpen are in fact improperly heat treated and challenging to deburr. compare different heat treats of the same component, it lacks a theoretical foundation and its not clear how to relate it to the real world. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. 14C28N is offered on midprice knives and is one of the better steels on a dollar-for-dollar basis. n690 Plus the charts get messier, and I dont always have data for a wide range of hardness values. I have a couple questions, not directly related to this specific post, that I wanted to ask publically so that others could find your responses as well, so here seemed as good a place as any. Spyderco and Cold Steel have used it, though Cold Steel recently switched to S35VN due to availability concerns. Elmax . What it is: 14C28N is a Sandvik stainless steel commonly used in razors and kitchen knives. Poor availability may effectively increase cost of steel. The chart below has dotted lines which indicate the average effect of hardness for any given steel. You cant look at only the chromium content of the steel to know the level of corrosion resistance. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, read an article I wrote on budget steels here, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/, https://i0.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/stainless-toughness-10-19-21.jpg?w=757&ssl=1, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/, The Pros And Cons Of Stainless Steel Copper And Aluminum Brewing Equipment SanctuaryBrewCo, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/. AEB-L is rarely found on production knives but can be found on custom knives easily. CRKT and Spyderco use BD1. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. 14C28N steel is the improved version of 13C26 with better rust resistance. Note that corrosion is detrimental for the cutting edge. The steel is an air-hardness tool steel that is considered semi-stainless because of its high chromium content. does 1.4116 deserve the title of title of ultimate trash steel? It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Can you contact me via my email address so I can send you a copy in PDF and epub. 14C28N is a type of high-performance stainless steel used in knife-making. The 14C28N, on the other hand, is tougher. Therefore, you cannot purchase the knife for use in corrosive environments. A quick check shows the compositions of these steels are nearly identical, so based on that Id expect them to perform similarly (differences in heat treat and blade geometry aside). 1095 stains easily and thus is often coated, especially in fixed blades. It's more often pitted against the VG10 since both are widely popular high-carbon stainless steel grades. I think you wrote an article a bit ago on CTS-XHP and concluded that like D2 and ZDP-189 it wasnt really stainless (although stainless is a somewhat arbitrary line). Where did it come from? worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). Combination of knife steel properties. What carbon/tool steel would you choose for a survival knife if a PM steel was too expensive? Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: 6/10: 6/10: CIVIVI Knives Elementum Folding Pocket Knife 2.96" D2 Satin Blade . European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. Ive found that most makers harden S30V too much, making it prone to chipping at the edge. Im writing a book about choosing a knife for EDC. For example, see the chart below for how much edge retention can change with edge geometry for a single steel (in this case 154CM and CPM-154). Typically an increase in corrosion resistance means a reduction in potential hardness for a given steel. Read about my tests in this article. D2 steel knives, on the other hand, offer great edge retention and wear resistance, which are properties of tool steels.14C28ND2Toughness93.5Edge retention35Corrosion resistance8.54.5Ease of sharpeningEasyModerately Hard14C28N vs D2. For example, increasing edge retention from Z-Tuff to 3V (100 mm in the CATRA test) led to a drop in over 10 ft-lbs, a similar drop is seen by going from 3V to CPM-CruWear. 2. 14c28n steel would be a great pick thanks to its high retention and corrosion, it would be great for a normal EDC knife. The knife does dull faster. The Sandvik 14c28n steel is ideal for the manufacturing of steel knife blades. Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. But if when youre searching for tough steel for your outdoor experience camping, or hunting, it would be perfect steel but not the best choice therere other steels with better than toughness that would suit your usage. Steels high in toughness are excellent for knives likely to see hard impacts, like large chopping knives. ), intended use will give you all the answers. https://cedric-ada-store.creator-spring.com/listing/brickard-heritage-collectionGood gravy its bricky on thingsSubscribe and hit the bell! For example, Bohler M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all nearly identical and indistinguishable in practice. That old pine in particular is some crazy hard stuff. Many steel ratings seem to over-emphasize edge retention. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. For more information, please see our Even premium steels can have poor performance with poor heat treatment. Short of purposeful abuse, its all but impossible to chip an edge on an INFI blade. S110V has improved corrosion resistance at the cost of some toughness compared to S90V. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. 14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Knives are one of our oldest tools, so it makes sense that they have evolved into thousands of styles since the first person chipped one out of stone. High wear resistance is not particularly necessary when only performing chopping, and its good ease in sharpening helps when having to restore the edges. rex 121 its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. Steels that are improperly heat treated have excess retained austenite which makes them extremely difficult to deburr. Here, read on for an in-depth look at common knife steels as well as the best knife steels around. Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. YMMV Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. Damascus or pattern welded steel is a result of combining two steels together. It is a premium steel that is known for its excellent balance of hardness, corrosion resistance, and edge retention. The best knife for you should meet your needs and fit your budget. show very different and even inversed behaviour (e.g. The very good toughness of MagnaCut meant that it didnt chip despite this relatively high hardness and the difficulty of the test. 2. and get better and longer-lasting performance? blue steel Why do knives make the best gifts? Continue with Recommended Cookies. Monday-Friday My test is for comparing different steels, not necessarily for a go/no go test for saltwater applications. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. most knives are being made out of these and other mediocre steels like 14c28n, 420j2, 425m. The best scenario is when the steel, heat treatment, and geometry are selected for the knife and the use. I think they are complementary and you should watch/read both. And for high toughness you want little or no carbide. Any thoughts how Sleipner might fare in the ratings? I am particularly interested in researching knife steel, knife properties, and brands. That provides 14% Chromium and offers excellent corrosion resistance. . High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Being stainless is not an on or off property, and some stainless steels are more resistant to corrosion than others. I was the heat treater, but after HT to only 58-59 hardness the blades went to the surface grinders for finishing and I remember them going into the packing boxes with mirror polished edges. To choose the best knife for you between the 14C28N and the D2, look at the steel properties and ensure that they suit your knife needs and lifestyle. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. Im not sure they answer my question, though, and some of your points dont seem to jive with the info here on Larrins site. D2 at 58 hard will cut much more rope than AEB-L at 62. However, high wear resistance means that abrasives are used up more rapidly, more careful grinding is necessary to avoid overheating, finishing and polishing is much more time consuming, etc. Below, weve listed some of the attributes you might want out of your steel and given some examples in both the more expensive powder metallurgy steels and more affordable conventionally produced steels. It was originally developed for use as ball-bearing steel by NASA. BD1 is excellent budget steel, very similar in composition and performance to GIN-1, a Japanese steel used a decade ago by Spyderco. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. This list is not exhaustive, so check out some of our rating tables for more information on whatever steel youre interested in. What about K390? Are you okay with that? Vancron would work well in a kitchen knife. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). They have many similarities, including their high hardness, strength, and wear resistance. Corrosion on knife steels most usually takes the form of rust, patina, and staining. Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Note just because a blade is made from the premium or high-end steels listed above does not automatically mean its better than the lesser steels. You can read an article I wrote on budget steels here. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. Quite an eyeopener! In reality hardly difference. You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. Different heat treats have emerged over the years, but one has risen to the top as the best:Bob Doziers D2. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% it's relatively corrosion-resistant. It applies to both of course, hence why there isnt a separate label. Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. Also Mo additions improve corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. But then if you look at an increase of 100 mm in the CATRA test from Maxamet to Rex 121 the toughness only drops 1-2 ft-lbs. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). D2 steel, on the other hand, is tool steel, and its knives shine on edge retention and wear resistance. You cannot leave your 14C28N knives in water overnight and expect them not to rust. Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. On the other hand, these types of steel provide high wear resistance and toughness. You will get an ultra-sharp edge with 14C28N knives. That way you can get into the steel ratings quickly. Ruike Sandvik 14c28n vs D2 looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. I have a Winkler Knives Recon model in 5160 steel and even though the knife model is ok, the steel is shit. Im a woodworker and Im interested in making better performing plane irons and chisels. Its an update of its 12C27 and 13C26 steels, which were developed for use in shaving razors. The majority of knives target 63 Rc or below so this limitation of stainless steels does not always come into play but can be an important factor for certain knives targeting high performance and thin edges. H1 One is certainly anti-China bias, as you pointed out. For example, below is a video comparing a 1095 ESEE knife at 55-57 Rc and a MagnaCut knife at 62.5 Rc, both with the same edge angle. The 14C28N stainless steel from Swedish manufacturer Sandvik is considered an upgrade to their 13C26 steel (described below).